IN THE SPACE WITH… ‘GRILLS’ CREATORS, CHLOE CHRISTIAN AND OLIVIA DOWD

It is at the core of Old Diorama’s charitable purpose to provide space and opportunities for local and creative communities and, in doing so, we are fortunate to meet fascinating people doing inspiring things. This is the latest in a series of interviews with some of the creative people we support and commission at ODAC.

Chloe Christian and Olivia Dowd are the main recipients of our joint commission with Camden People’s Theatre called ‘Camden NoW!’. They took time away from their busy schedules to chat to me about ‘Grills’. The funding and support for ‘Camden NoW!’ was aimed at a project that had a story that needed to be told now, and would benefit from a fast-track to full production.

Firstly, would you mind telling us a bit about the show?

‘Grills’ is about the Camden Lesbian Group and Black* Lesbian Group (CLG & BLG) and its archive. The group formed in the 1980s and closed in 1995 due to funding cuts. ‘Grills’ explores what ‘progress’ means, and asks what stories are we missing by being unable to gather freely? It is a show about Queer joy and about Queer community spaces.

One of the key themes of the show relates to the fact that when it was closed down, the archive (which was once in London) was moved 500 miles away to Glasgow. We became interested in what happens when we don’t have the ability to access these types of stories, or the ability to meet with the people that helped to create them.

*Meaning politically black which, at that time, encompassed people whom we would now refer to as people of colour.

Tell us about the process of creating the show

We started by going to Glasgow for five days, eating Greggs vegetarian sausage rolls and spending time in the beautiful Glasgow Women’s Library. It was so peaceful there - a really special place. There was something very meta, in that our piece talks a lot about space and the importance of feeling comfortable and at home somewhere. And our process started off in such a welcoming place that allowed us to play. We took loads of photos and then we came back and realised we had to then go through our own archives!

Then we got a cast together. It was originally going to be four people but then we decided to add an additional cast member. It was the group that we knew we wanted to work with. We spent around half the week with them discussing the material and hearing their thoughts and reflections, and then the rest of the week improvising.

So then we went away and worked on the script. Then the rehearsals started on December 5th and the show opens on Thursday 15th December! The whole thing will have taken two months!

One important part of the process we haven’t mentioned was meeting the women who were in the original group; talking to them about the project and hearing their stories and reflections. Collecting their accounts and stories alongside the archived documentation ties in to one of the themes of the show - exploring how things are saved.

Would you mind telling us why it’s called ‘Grills’?

Yes! In the archives, we found a letter - a fictional bit of creative writing from someone called Marjorie writing to her husband Arthur. She’s quite scathing about him. The letter is a very funny reflection of her night out with the ‘Grills’ group and her discovery of her sexuality - and to say “I’m done with you, Arthur”. And in the letter, she refers to the women she met as ‘grills’ (as a substitute for ‘girls’).

I suppose we had considered ‘Archive’ as a title, or ‘Archived’ but this name stuck! A lot of the conversations at the moment are about trans women and their inclusion, and we want this to be an inclusive piece, so it’s important for me and Liv to explore this. We think that ‘grills’ is a gender-neutral term, which is also appropriate.

The Camden NoW! commission is about trying to find a story that needed to be told ‘now’. Why is that the case with this story?

It’s not new or original for us to say that funding cuts are shit - and that Queer spaces are closing more than ever. But what is interesting is that the fight is still there. Some spaces are opening up: Queer Britain, the new community centre on Blackfriars, and the Friends of the Joiners Arms who have raised £100k to re-open the pub and community centre. People’s desires for safe spaces - not necessarily ones where you have to drink or party, but safe spaces where you can feel welcome - are needed as much as ever.

We also feel that the landscape of queerness, particularly amongst Gen-Z people is increasingly visible, which is amazing, but it is also incredibly digital. It is all well and good to feel accepted digitally, but it is different in the real world and we wanted to explore that in the piece as well.

We consider our space welcoming to and safe for the Queer community in the context. Do you have any suggestions for what we can do to better serve the Queer community?

One suggestion from the Women’s Library in Glasgow is to have badges available for pronouns. It can be really helpful to have that visibility so that people immediately know, and it shows visible allyship.

Offering something nominal - free tea or coffee and biscuits can be a helpful way of showing you’re a welcoming space, and advertising and displaying that, as well.

Also, we are so grateful you took a punt on us and it's so rare that this happens. I think that women and non-binary people do get less funding generally in arts spaces and beyond and so it feels really amazing to have support from organisations like ODAC.

What impact has this commission made to you as artists?

Personally, more confidence with writing and creation, generally. But we’ve also been able to make connections with so many different artists… so many amazing opportunities for collaboration with different people. There are four other people on the creative team and five actors and we have developed relationships with all of them. 

Aside from just the creatives, being able to speak to members of the original group and learning from them, and being inspired by them has been great.

Tell me about one particularly special interaction you’ve had with someone from the original group

There was a moment that kind of joins the meeting of someone with the work that we are doing in a really beautiful way. We interviewed a woman whose partner, who had passed away 15 years earlier, had been very involved with the BLG. We had a great conversation with her, learning about their experiences and lots of information about her partner, the group and their involvement in it. Then in the rehearsal room, I had photos out from the archive and one of the cast members asked about her, and we were able to describe this person’s whole life; everything they did at BLG, everything they did afterwards, her publications and her work in academia. It really felt like we had reached her, and had an insight into her life - someone who had something small but huge.

We had been able to get a real insight into a giant on whose shoulders we now stand. They made a significant difference to what we now have and it was a pleasure to share that with the team.

How have you found working at ODAC? And how is it collaborating with us?

Honestly, it’s so wonderful because it’s one of the things you really struggle with as a freelancer, always working from home or in cafés. I love the opportunity to be somewhere consistently, to see people regularly, have a chat - see Ziggy the dog, and have moments of human interaction and recognise one another as colleagues. Particularly in the current world - with funding cuts etc - there aren’t many opportunities to spend time working and creating in a place like this

.Thank you very much to Chloe and Liv for taking the time to chat to us! The show runs from 15th to 17th December at the Camden People’s Theatre at 7:15pm (with a Saturday Matinee at 2:30pm).

For more information including how to book tickets: https://cptheatre.co.uk/whatson/Grills

And thank you to the talented Zbigniew Kotkiewicz for his fantastic photos.